Posts by drew sagan

4

Free ebook "The Authoritarians"

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

i'm sure some of the right wingers won't take well to this book.

but what the heck, its a fun read!.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/.

drew sagan

I'm sure some of the right wingers won't take well to this book. But what the heck, its a fun read!

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

One great example from the book. Described is a research project in which individuals were presented with Bible texts that contradicted one another. The results are discussed:

I then offered each subject space to explain her position on the Bible under various headings. The first possibility was “There are, in fact, no contradictions or inconsistencies in the four accounts.” Other possibilities attributed the contradictions and inconsistencies to human error in translation, etcetera, or to some of the evangelists getting details wrong, or to the whole thing being a myth.

Most of the fundamentalists stuck by their guns and insisted no contradictions or inconsistencies existed in the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection, no matter what one might point out. I call that dogmatism. Furthermore a curious analogy kept popping up in their defense of this seemingly indefensible stand. Many of them said the evangelists were like witnesses to an automobile accident, each of whom saw the event from a different place, and therefore gave a slightly different account of what had happened. I’m ready to bet they picked up this “analysis-by-analogy” in Sunday school, or some such place. Like the arguments against evolution, you can tell they just swallowed this “explanation” without thinking because it is, in fact, an admission that contradictions and inconsistencies do exist. The “different angles”story just explains how the contradictions got there.

Ultimately the true believers were saying, “I believe so strongly that the Bible is perfect that there’s nothing, not even the Bible itself, that can change my mind.” If that seems like an enormous self-contradiction, put it on the list. We are dealing with very compartmentalized minds. They’re not really interested in coming to grips with what’s actually in the Bible so much as mounting a defense of what they want to believe about the Bible--come Hell or Noah’s high water. 20

21

Democrats WANT Babies to Die

by AwSnap in

jw
friends

hahahahaha!....i heard this from a jw today!

they said, "i don't know which is which, but one of them is more conservative (i said 'i think that's republicans) and tend to do things more along the lines of the bible.

and then the other party (democrats) is kind of wild and pushes for abortions and gay marriage.

drew sagan

I once remember a JW Elder talking about how the US has no choice but to "take out" Saddam (this was right before the Iraq war began). Funny to see a JW Elder have a hawkish attitude towards American foreign polciy.

17

I need your opinion, helping a love one see the light

by tjlibre in

jw
friends

ill have a long weekend this week because of the thanksgiving holyday.

i made plans to have the entire weekend off with no activities in order to have time to begin to awake my wife.

i dont plan to lay everything out in one day, nor take the approach of we are living this organization, rather, im taking the approach of here is some information that we should consider and think about.

drew sagan

Because you have been a part of the Watchtower system, JW family and friends have certain expectations in regards to you opinions and actions. Functioning outside of this expected norm can trigger all sorts of unpleasent confrontations.

So how to do you help your loved ones? It depends upon who they are, and the circumstances that bind you. A married person trying to help there spouse has the ability to go especially slow and gain advantage from a strong personal relationship. If you want to talk with family the question comes up, how often do you see them? Is this a daily thing, or are the located far away. Will they accept you as a non-jw, and continue to speak with you after you have left the movement? I can point you to a lot of threads where ex-jws relate on this board the frustrating experience of just "planting a few seeds" with a JW loved one.

More than anything, take your time. If you come off as "apostate" then trust will be lost and your hopes are over.

17

I need your opinion, helping a love one see the light

by tjlibre in

jw
friends

ill have a long weekend this week because of the thanksgiving holyday.

i made plans to have the entire weekend off with no activities in order to have time to begin to awake my wife.

i dont plan to lay everything out in one day, nor take the approach of we are living this organization, rather, im taking the approach of here is some information that we should consider and think about.

drew sagan

Won't work. The WTS has conditioned its members to be dismissive and aggresive when such questions are asked. It's a path to failure if you ask me...

BTW, I was able to help my wife "see the light", but it took patience and time. Read my posts to see how it worked for me (as well as posts by JWD member openmind).

17

I need your opinion, helping a love one see the light

by tjlibre in

jw
friends

ill have a long weekend this week because of the thanksgiving holyday.

i made plans to have the entire weekend off with no activities in order to have time to begin to awake my wife.

i dont plan to lay everything out in one day, nor take the approach of we are living this organization, rather, im taking the approach of here is some information that we should consider and think about.

drew sagan

Won't work. The WTS has conditioned its members to be dismissive and aggresive when such questions are asked. It's a path to failure if you ask me...

BTW, I was able to help my wife "see the light", but it took patience and time. Read my posts to see how it worked for me (as well as posts by JWD member openmind).

9

The Watchtowers exsistance "proves" the Bible is true

by drew sagan in

people validate their own reilgious experiences in a variety of differant ways.

for example, many in the power of prayer and see all of their life events as tied directly to the will of god.

others believe that they have been witnessed or experienced miracles of healing and revelation.. jehovah's witnesses are unique in that they typically ignore traditional means of verification, seeing them as superstitious, overly emotional, and self absorbed.

drew sagan

I find it interesting how you say that almost as if one is naturally better than the other.

Just visited this old thread an noticed your comment.

Do I find one naturally better than the other?

Hell no!

18

A Weakness of the Information Age

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

i love the overall direction the world is taking right now thanks to technology and esp the internet.

the world is a much smaller place.

we can now have instant commuinication and know what is going on in the world at any given time.. perhaps its a happy accident that the internet has evolved into a cheap, sometimes free platform for news distribution.

drew sagan

I found the opinions of David Simon (creator of "the wire") be rather interesting in this regard. He tends to be a pessimist, and is critical of both the new forms that are emerging as well as the dominant forms of the past. Here is a good quote, taken from his testimony to the Senate Commerce Committee.

First, cutting down trees and printing a daily accounting of the world on paper and delivering it to individual doorsteps is anachronistic. And if that is so, then the industry is going to have to find a way to charge for online content. Yes, I have heard the post-modern rallying cry that information wants to be free. But information isn't. It costs money to send reporters to London, Fallujah and Capitol Hill, and to send photographers with them, and to keep them there day after day. It costs money to hire the best investigators and writers and then to back them up with the best editors. It costs money to do the finest kind of journalism. And how anyone can believe that the industry can fund that kind of expense by giving its product away online to aggregators and bloggers is a source of endless fascination to me. A freshman marketing major at any community college can tell you that if you don't have a product for which you can charge people, you don't actually have a product. (bold added)

I'm not sure that I agree with his solution completely (which appears later in the testimony), but he raises a number of very good points.

28

HELP I need some ex-elders help for a phone conversation with my JW parents

by cyberjesus in

ok this is the deal: i was dfd 14 years ago, i was just planning to go back last year.

i had planned to come back with a clean conscience so i started to study and research the wt to prove to myself this was the truth, the elders had met with me to suggest me to submit a letter of reinstatement, in the same meeting i told them i had some questions that i needed help with before i was to go back.

they said they were gonna answer those questions after i was reinstated :-d so i went by myself and started doing my research.

drew sagan

I will not try to attack their faith. (i will let them do it themselves)

One thing to keep in mind. Jw will typically "bait" you into attack mode. During a conversation negative aspects of the JW faith will be dismissed, pushing you further and further towards frustration. In an effort to overcome their dismissive attitude, you may be inclined to exaggerate things in hopes of getting your point across (e.g. focusing on very contriversial subjects like blood and DF). The instant you show any emotion they will say "got ya!", believing that you are just angry and defiant and not really in search of "truth". You are "full of pride" and deserve little respect.

I only had a few conversations with JWs that I would call productive. In each case the JW agreed with me when we talked, and showed very little of a defensive attitude. In every case the JW went back to JW Elders who convinced them that their doubts were unjustified.

When I had these conversations I had an extrememly structured presentation. The JW was given very little time for rebuttles and argument. During one conversation, I had photocopies, bible verses, and organized documentation. I went point by point, asking that the person consider the Watchtowers own information. For over two hours I spoke with an Elder who eventually said that I was right. He appeared very scared (my wife actually was affraid he might be very distressed at seeing that it may not be the truth). The truths I confronted him with eventually made him angry at me, making our JC situation worse. Because of a group mentality, the Elder ganged with two other elders and did a complete 180, acting harshly towards us during the committee meetings. Yet, he visited my house once more and displayed the same kind attitude as he did when the other Elders wern't around. Kind of like a dual personality.

If you dad is actually open to listening, I would suggest you have everything you want to present documents. Lots of websites have the quotes organized that you need. Make sure it is current. Don't just go off saying "you know that they do this....". The JW will simply deny it. Use the publications, they are the authoritative source.

30

The Latest Lie

by agonus in

in a recent watchtower, the paradise earth doctrine and its "uniqueness" to jehovah's witnesses is discussed.

i don't have a scan available at the moment but i may be able to obtain one.. .

what i wanted to bring your attention to is the paragraph discussing the bible students' teaching of a "paradise earth" under pastor russell's leadership.

drew sagan

I believe the original idea of an "earthly hope" was for a non-believers class, but I could be wrong.

28

HELP I need some ex-elders help for a phone conversation with my JW parents

by cyberjesus in

ok this is the deal: i was dfd 14 years ago, i was just planning to go back last year.

i had planned to come back with a clean conscience so i started to study and research the wt to prove to myself this was the truth, the elders had met with me to suggest me to submit a letter of reinstatement, in the same meeting i told them i had some questions that i needed help with before i was to go back.

they said they were gonna answer those questions after i was reinstated :-d so i went by myself and started doing my research.

drew sagan

I highly reccommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/War-Heaven-Earth-Apocalyptic-Millennialism/dp/1904768881/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

It's heavy academic material, but well worth the read. I also enjoyed the book "When Time Shall Be No More". Looking at JW type beliefs (protestant millenialism) within a broader societal context helps bring in some perspective.

Won't help you with your folks, but still worth a read.